TOPIC:

Tom

I didn't find Marc on the ILH medal roll so, as you have already concluded, he was not with this regiment. He might have been seconded in some capacity to either Major Gough (later General Sir Hubert Gough) or Lord Dundonald, so he might have been in Buller's relief force, rather than besieged in Ladysmith or a Talana POW, as were most 18th Hussars. Major Gough, who had served with the 16th Lancers in India, was seconded from Dundonald's staff to command the Composite Regiment and such secondments were common during the Boer War.

It was not uncommon for men to have claimed to be amongst the relatively small number who rode into Ladysmith on the afternoon of 28 February 1900. I think even Winston Churchill made such a claim. It no doubt aggravated a lot of people that the men who actually lifted the siege were Colonial rather than Imperial soldiers, given the relative contributions of the two groups to the relief operations.

I think that Trooper is the correct or more common rank title for Privates in the Cavalry.

I hope you wont mind me deviating from the subject of this thread by posing a question? It has recently become evident to me that many members of the Lawrence family have served in the British army, so much so I have been unable to establish the relationships of one such man. He was Private (or Rifleman) F Lawrence, who served with the 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps in India (Relief of Chitral in 1895), and with the 1st KRRC Mounted Infantry at Talana (POW) and the 25th (KRRC) Mounted Infantry later in the Boer War. F Lawrence later settled in South Africa and served with South African forces in World War I. Have you come across this man in your research on the Lawrence family?

Regards
Brett

Here is some more reading for you Tom......

From a list of Cavalry that was put out in a CD a while ago.....

Lawrence, A.H., 181, Private, 14th Hussars, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal. From 7th Hussars No. 3580. Danger Wound, nr Heidelberg, 04/12/00

Lawrence, B., 3444, Private, 3rd Hussars, OFS, Transvaal, 1902.

Lawrence, C., 3162, Private, 12th Lancers, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal. 16th Lancers Reservist. With Prov. Regt. of Lancers

Lawrence, C., 5195, Private, 17th Lancers, Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Belfast, Cape Colony, OFS.

Lawrence, E., 5083, Private, 7th Dragoon Guards, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal, 1901, 1902.

Lawrence, E., 3494, Corporal, 8th Hussars, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal. From 11th Hussars. Transferred to S.A.C. (A Div. No. 1945)

Lawrence, F., 3693, Private, 6th Dragoon Guards, Paardeberg, Dreifontein, Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Belfast, Cape Colony. Slight Wound, De Villiersdorp, 19/04/02

Lawrence, F.W., 5411, Private, 12th Lancers, Cape Colony, 1902.

Lawrence, F.W., 5318, Private, 7th Hussars, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal, 1901, 1902.

Lawrence, Freeling Ross, Captain & Brevet Major, 14th Hussars, Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Belfast, Cape Colony, OFS, Tugela Heights, Relief of Ladysmith, 1901, 1902.

Lawrence, H., 3117, Sergeant Farrier, 12th Lancers, Cape Colony, 1901. To Prov. Regt. of Lancers

Lawrence, H., 4551, Private, 19th Hussars, Belfast, OFS, Defence of Ladysmith, Laing's Nek. Transferred to A Div. S.A.C., 07/12/00

Lawrence, H., 3822, Private, 6th Dragoons, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal. Wounded, Vredes Verdrag, 10/05/00. Missing - rejoined, Lindique, 16/12/00

Lawrence, H., 3719, Private, 7th Dragoon Guards, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal.

Lawrence, Herbert Alexander, Brevet Lieutenant Colonel,17th Lancers, Paardeberg, Dreifontein, Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Belfast, Relief of Kimberley. Staff of General French & Commander of 16th Lancers

Lawrence, J., 3091, Private, 17th Lancers, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal, 1901. Discharged

Lawrence, J., 4371, Private, 17th Lancers, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal.

Lawrence, J., 1606, Trooper, 1st Life Guards, Paardeberg, Dreifontein, Johannesburg, Wittebergen, Relief of Kimberley.

Lawrence, J. ,5049, Private, 6th Dragoons, Cape Colony. Killed in Action, Colesberg, 01/01/00

Lawrence, L., 3876, Private, 2nd Dragoons, Paardeberg, Belfast, Cape Colony. With 2nd Dragoon Guards

Lawrence, M., 4268, Private, 13th Hussars, OFS, Transvaal, Tugela Heights, Relief of Ladysmith. Prisoner, Trigaardsfontein, 01/11/01. Released

Lawrence, R., 4154, Private,14th Hussars, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal.

Lawrence,R.,5025,Private,7th Dragoon Guards,Cape
Colony,OFS,Transvaal,1901,1902. To 5th Dragoon Guards, 23/10/02

Lawrence,R.J.,4177,Shoeing Smith,14th Hussars,Cape
Colony,OFS,Transvaal.

Lawrence,S.,3440,Private,2nd Dragoons,Cape Colony,OFS,Transvaal,1901.
With 4th Dragoon Guards

Lawrence,T.,3934,Sergeant,17th Lancers,Johannesburg,Diamond
Hill,Wittebergen,Cape Colony,1901. Holder of the V.C.

Lawrence,T.W.,4357,Private,19th Hussars,Defence of Ladysmith. Died of
disease, Ladysmith, 23/12/99

Lawrence,W.,3989,Private,13th Hussars,OFS,Transvaal,Tugela
Heights,Relief of Ladysmith,1901.

Lawrence,W.,4584,Private,20th Hussars,OFS,Transvaal,1901,1902.

Mike

Dear Mike,

Many thanks indeed for that. There's a couple there that stick out, and will get that all together to digest with the others. many thanks indeed for your help

Dear Brett,

Your question about F. Lawrence. Sorry can't really help you there. Our bunch came from Worcestershire where my great grandfather (John Turner Lawrence) settled. He originally hailed from Wiltshire (b. 1821) which is a God-forsaken county to do family history research in. I only know one one sister who remained a spinster (Anna Maria Ford Lawrence). He was quite a prolific soul and managed to sire 13+ children from two wives between about 1840 up until about 1895.

If your man was in India in 1895, he must have been born sometime pre-1875(ish) which puts him of an age with Tom of the VC (b. 1873) and Marc (b. 1878). I can't remember where the mysterious Harold who alleged to have died at Nicholson's Nek fits in. Off the top of my head, but know there was a brother in between the two. Tom was the oldest son from the second wife. I have no idea why either of them joined the Army, as there seems to be no military history in the family that I know of, let alone specific interest in horses/horsemanship. Both of them went on to become distinguished horsemen -Tom being partly responsible for the British Cavalry adopting what is called 'the forward seat'.

Following logic, IF your F. Lawrence was anything to do with us lot, he would have had to have come from the first marriage as that is not well documented, and there are (if a newspaper obituary is to be believed) some children that I have not yet been able to account for... If I am honest, with Lawrence being a relatively common name, and the timings I think this is a long shot!

One of youngest brothers left for South Africa (no idea when, but think post Boer War but before The Great War called Guy Valentine Lawrence (Valentine). He was a cricketer of note, but again beyond that I have no idea what happened to him either. Marc ended up in Southern Rhodesia in 1907-14 attached to the Southern Rhodesian Volunteers. He settled there in 1922-4 with his young family, but it didn't work and then came to Kenya in 1926. But I don't think any of that will help you either!

Interesting that you mention a propensity of Lawrences in the military. I was talking to a venal surgeon not long after my oldest brother suffered from a clot in his legs whilst on a flight to Australia. He explained that there is a genetic range for one's ability for your blood to clot. Obviously one end of the spectrum are hemophiliacs, but there are those whose blood clots at the drop of a hat. And that such fast clotting abilities are known to be more prevalent in military families, on the basis that if wounded you are more likely to survive if your blood clots quickly! Probably more coincidence than anything, but think it an interesting anecdote!

Can you give me any more details on F. Lawrence?

Tom

Tom

I am most grateful to you for the trouble you took in replying to my enquiry. Mike has confirmed my impressions of the Lawrence clan - it was large and many of its men served in the British army.

About an hour ago, I had a telephone call from a researcher in Pretoria with disappointing news about the content of F Lawrence's records in the military archives. The fact that his first name was 'Fred' is all that is new.

I was interested in the information on blood-clotting propensity. Judging from a recent cut on my foot, I would not have made a good addition to the army.

Regards
Brett

David/Brett/Mike,

Burnt some midnight oil as I was getting more and more confused, and managed to unearth the bits of research that I had already done ages ago but had got buried after about five house moves!

I can confirm that Marc Lawrence was in the 13th Hussars, who then became the 13th/18th Hussars so hence my confusion! He appears on your roll as M Lawrence 4268. That may well change your perspective on your thoughts on 'the first man into Ladysmith'... It would mean that Marc would have got into Ladysmith on the 27th Feb as Dundonald's column was in on 1st march and Buller with the main column on 3rd March...

Also got to Harold Lawrence, who is Gilbert Harold Lawrence (b. 1876) so am working on that at the moment. I am also looking at the next brother down Alexander (Sandy Lawrence) who would have been old enough to go to the Boer War (b. 1879/80 approx) as maybe it was him.

I was wondering, is there a short list of all the Imperial Units that were in the Siege of Ladysmith?

Another question -the reference in brackets after the QSA -is that a ref to the number of Clasps?

...and finally does anyone know where I might find out anything more about Trigaardsfontein? I have a photocopy of the History of the 13th Hussars South Africa chapters, which mentions it in passing but nothing specific to the group of prisoners taken -it seems very much in the style of those bravely fighting for the empire and is a little prone to gloss over the errors and blunders.

Many thanks indeed,


Tom

Tom

Since the 13th Hussars were part of the Mounted Brigade, they would have entered Ladysmith with Dundonald, but this was following the first entry by Colonial elements of the Composite Regiment.

A useful website on the Siege and Relief of Ladysmith is www.ladysmithhistory.com . It includes lists of the regiments involved.

Regards
Brett