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Medals to Lovat's Scouts 10 years 5 months ago #25846
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Paul
Sorry for the delay; the group pic with Lord Lovat at top RHS was taken from "After Pretoria; the Guerilla War" Vol.3 page 484. I had intended to cite it; however, I ran out of space ![]() If you are interested, I found a more complete account of the action of 19/20 09 1901 in the abovementioned Vol.4. I tried to take pics of the text - but the text did not come out well. I have taken the liberty of editing the text as follows: I must say that I don't think the experienced Commander and lads of the first contingent of Lovats would have been caught so badly as the Second Contingent. Col. Murray and his 2ic must bear responsibility for what followed. After the Lovats camp had been set up, the reduced picket line was marked down by Gen.Kritzinger and a storming force of a hundred burghers slipped through and actually got into the camp and opened fire on the tent lines. Col. Murray was shot, bayoneted and killed; his 2ic was found with twelve wounds in his body. The sentry on the gun was "horribly mutilated". In the context of a surprise attack, such things happened; however the Boers then proceeded to question the non-combatant natives (presumably waggon drivers, etc and not scouts) about the whereabouts of ammunition for the captured 15 pdr and when this was located, the natives were executed one by one. Vol.4 comments that, upon news of the disaster reaching home, another Company was raised to replace that had been "so severely handled". Paul, your man and my Cpl.Morrison would have been part of that later Contingent. The editor of Vol.4 comments of the similarity between the Wilmansrust disaster and that which befel the Lovats - and says that an inquiry took place as to the conduct of the outposts on the night of the 19th/20th; but it's verdict was never made public. He further comments that "the incident is still shrouded in mystery, and the full truth is not likely to be known for many years, perhaps not at all". "Yet it would seem that a full and public report in this case, as in the case of the disasterous attack on the camp of the Victorians at Wlimansrust some three months previous might have done much to warn commanders of the risk of an inefficient outpost service". About the only bright spot in the whole mess was that Kritzinger did not manage to carry off the 15-pdr gun he had taken; Col. Thorneycroft - hearing of the disaster - arrived on the scene and attacked the escaping Boers; killing two, capturing twenty, recapturing the gun plus 10,000 rounds of rifle ammunition. Regards IL.
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Medals to Lovat's Scouts 10 years 5 months ago #25849
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Hello Ian,
Many thanks again for your reply and the extra information. I must admit I overlooked researching the "Guerilla War" book I only have Vol 3 or 4 so will have a look tonight. That does sound like a brutal action, and the type of confrontations I imagine nearing the culmination of the war. Regards Paul ![]() "From a billow of the rolling veldt we looked back, and black columns were coming up behind us."
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Medals to Lovat's Scouts 5 years 11 months ago #65541
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Dr David Biggins
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Medals to Lovat's Scouts 5 years 11 months ago #65543
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There is an interesting Hansard report from 1904 involving Earl Wemyss, Earl Roberts and Lord Lovat.
The key points for me were: - After Black Week, the need for better reconnaissance was recognised - Telescopes were advocated due to the better range compared to binoculars - Lord Lovat initially intended to send out trained deer-stalkers to be spread across units - The War Office would only accept units of around 120 men - Lord Lovat changed to composition of Lovat's Scouts, including more sharpshooters and fewer stalkers - Earl Roberts saw Lovat's Scouts as Yeomanry and kept them together - Earl Roberts used local men as scouts THE YEOMANRY AND LOVAT'S SCOUTS. HL Deb 18 July 1904 vol 138 cc231-45 EARL WEMYSS. The other matter I refer to in my notice is the question of the Lovat Scouts. Lord Lovat and I, unconsciously, were working at the same time at the same thing. We had the disadvantage, at the commencement of the war, of experiencing what were called "regrettable incidents," like that at Magersfontein. When these regrettable incidents took place through blind blundering, I had a strong feeling that what was wanted were men who knew how to use the telescope. Your Lordships will hardly believe it, but our Army was sent out to South Africa with hardly a telescope among them. They had, no doubt, field-glasses magnifying twelve times; but my old deer-stalking glass used to magnify thirty-five times. So clear was the atmosphere, a member of Lord Lovat's scouts told me they saw quite a dozen miles away, a body of Boers marching along a hillside. They looked at them with their deer-stalking glasses, and the question was whether these men were twelve or fourteen miles away. That gives your Lordships a notion of what a telescope can do in that climate; but, notwithstanding that, our soldiers, as said, were sent out without telescopes. After Magersfontein a General—I will not say who—wrote to Sir David Gill, the Astronomer Royal at the Cape and said— “For God's sake send me as many telescopes as you can.” I know, as regards Lovat's Scouts, that one General—one of the good Generals out there—after he had inspected these scouts, said— “Until I saw you at work I had no idea of the use that a telescope could be in war.” It was a telescope that enabled the Duke of Wellington to win the battle of Assaye and cross the Douro, and your Lordships know well the picture of him, painted by Sir Thomas Lawrence, with blue frock coat and telescope in hand. Yet one hundred years afterwards the British Army went to war without telescopes, and a British General admitted that he was not aware of the use of telescopes in war! Seeing all this, I felt strongly that what was wanted were scouts who knew how to stalk, men who knew the use of the telescope; for, after all, a soldier is nothing but a man-stalker, and the same qualities are necessary to make a man a good soldier and a good scout as are necessary to make him a good deerstalker. I wrote a letter to The Times on this subject, in which I asked— “Why don't they send out Highlanders, scouts accustomed to deer-stalking?” And the next day Lord Lovat, whom I had not the pleasure of knowing before, came to me and said— “What you have suggested I am busy doing. I am already forming such a body of men,” And a very good body of men they proved to be. But my Question refers to another matter. The last thing that came into my head, or into the head of any sensible person, the last thing that could have entered Lord Lovat's head when he was getting this corps together, was that they would be kept together, like any other body of troops, as a fighting unit. The idea was that they should be the eyes of the Army and be scattered about in different directions. But they were kept together. I asked one of these scouts how this came about, and he said it was due to the action of the authorities. I asked which authorities, the authorities here or the authorities out there, and he replied— “The authorities out there.” I have heard since that the authorities here and the authorities in South Africa differed on this point, but the latter had their own way and the men were kept together. A speech was made by my noble friend Lord Lovat in the Highlands which explains the whole thing so far as his knowledge goes, and I had intended quoting it. As however, the noble and gallant Lord is here to-night it would be absurd for me to read extracts from his speech; but I believe I am justified in asking how it happened that the Lovat Scouts were kept together as a fighting unit, and upon whom the responsibility of such a waste of power rests. LORD LOVAT My Lords, I rise with considerable reluctance to address your Lordships. I have very distinct views, and have not hesitated to express them on this subject, and I should be very sorry if, through not being accustomed to public speaking, I should say one word more than the case justified about any corps with which I have been associated. But as Lord Wemyss has asked me to do so, I will state exactly the manner in which the Lovat Scouts were treated, and how this question arose. Immediately after Magersfontein, in December, 1899, I went to the War Office and offered to raise a body of men, with ten or twelve officers and six or eight trained telescope men, stalkers, and others from the Highlands. This offer was rejected, the War Office informing me that they could only deal with units. They insisted that there should be 116 men, a bugler, two shoeing-smiths, and some farriers; and they declined to deal with any other force except a force thus composed. Accordingly I went out to South Africa with two units such as they desired me to raise. I would like to put Lord Wemyss right by saying that there was no chance, when once in South Africa, of dividing these units. The responsibility as to their organisation in units rests entirely with the War Office here. I did not take as many stalkers as I would otherwise have taken; I only took sufficient to do the work for these companies. In order to meet the War Office views I went in for picked shots. If the force had been organised as I had intended, and only stalkers had been taken, I consider that they would have been of very much greater use. I say this for two reasons. In the first place, as is well known, on the whole of the Colenso side there were only three officers at one time who were able to use the telescope efficiently. I think that if some thirty or forty good men had been distributed throughout the Army the work would have been done a great deal more efficiently. There is an other reason why I think the men could have done better service if they had been split up. On very many occasions we lent from the Lovat Scouts telescope men to various batteries, and as they asked for these men again in subsequent actions, I take it they were satisfied with the work the men did. On the point brought forward by Lord Wemyss as to the work of advance guards, I can only say this, that in two and half years experience I never knew any advance guard, possessing men with telescopes, which ran into the enemy. On each occasion that traps or ambuscades were laid they were discovered, not at two miles, as was generally the case, but at seven miles. I have nothing further to add with regard to the regiment with which I am associated, but I would like just to say one or two words on the subject of telescopes in war. I do not believe that the War Office have realised the necessity, especially in an open country, of the telescope in war. It is certain that in the clear atmosphere of South Africa, provided climatic influences were favourable, a single horseman could be detected up to a distance of fourteen miles, a number of troops on the march and camps of white tents could be distinguished up to twenty or twenty-one miles, and a man's head and shoulders above an intrenchment at 7,000 yards. The magnifying power of the stalkers' glass runs to thirty-five times, but with the glass used by the forces in South Africa you cannot see equally well up to half that distance. There is another reason for substituting entirely the telescope for the glass now used. I know the present glass is very much easier learnt, and I do not think any man, unless he has had six months study, can do any good with the telescope. I found on several occasions when I issued telescopes to men who had no previous training that it was necessary to take them back and give them the ordinary glasses. They did better work, untrained, with the latter. There is great need for increasing our powers of vision in the British Army. We continually blundered, quite unnecessarily, into the enemy in South Africa. Our artillery, on many occasions, fired on our own men, as also did the cavalry and infantry, and on several occasions I saw the artillery wasting hundred of shells in searching positions. Both of these errors would have been avoided by the use of proper telescopes. I would say that the first step for the War Office to take is to entirely abolish the obsolete telescopes that are now in use. The telescope they issued to me during the second year of the war, when drawn out to the full length, was 4 feet 11 inches. It was perfectly useless except on a stage. It weighed three times as much as the ordinary glass, and I understand it cost a good deal more than the glasses that one can buy at the Co-operative Stores. No doubt a man must be trained in the use of the telescope, but it is safe to say that a certain number of men go into the Army every year who have had some training with the telescope, before they join, and if they were discovered and put into the artillery, cavalry, or those branches of the service in which the telescope is most essential, some advantage might be gained. If we are unable to get trained men in the Army, there is no reason why a certain number of trained Scottish stalkers should not be maintained, by paying them a fee or by other means, as a sort of Reserve to be attached to batteries in time of war. There can be no difficulty in maintaining a small force like this. These men, I suggest, could be attached to the Intelligence Department to help the advance guard in the line of march, and they could do outpost work with the troops when halted, or assist the general in seeing at great distances. EARL ROBERTS My Lords, the noble Earl who began the debate brought forward two points—the equipment of Yeomanry and the employment of Lovat's Scouts. The last point my noble friend Lord Lovat has, I think, explained away. Lovat's Scouts were not employed as scouts in South Africa because they were not sent out to me as scouts. When the Yeomanry came out some were called sharpshooters, some roughriders, and some scouts. I saw Lovat's Scouts for the first time at Kroonstad in May, 1900, and I inspected them there. Lord Lovat never said anything to me about their being scouts, and I gather from what my noble friend has stated that the men were not specially trained as scouts. I would certainly never have thought of employing men sent out as Yeomanry, as they were, who were perfectly unacquainted with the country, on the very difficult work of scouting. I employed men of the country whenever I could get them. Dr David Biggins
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Medals to Lovat's Scouts 5 years 11 months ago #65544
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In IL's initial post he says 'Two Coys., 236 men in total were recruited - one mounted, one on foot. Up to 80 were chosen specifically for stalking prowess and all recruits were suitably tested for basic skills. After seven weeks of intensive training, the First Contingent of Lovat's departed from Beauly Station and arrived in Cape Town on 17041900.'
The medal roll for the original two companies of Lovat's Scouts is in WO130 pages 58 to 81. There is no identification of the number of medals issued in the AG2 header but counting up, I make it a net of 234 medals issued, close to IL's number. 12 medals were returned or issued off other rolls. 39 men served in the Provisional Transvaal Constabulary, roughly between October 1900 and either January or June 1901. All bar two men in the original draft of Lovat's Scouts have numbers in the range 87nn to 88nn. The other two numbers are 713 and 949. Some example QSAs to the original two companies of Lovat's Scouts, including 2 of the 4 DCMs they received: QSA (3) CC OFS Joh (8697 Pte W Barbour, Lovat’s Scts). William Balfour was a Water Bailiff. Joined at Fort Beaufort on 3 February 1900 and went to South Africa in March. His service concluded when his horse rolled on him and damaged his right arm in September 1900. Spink October 1999 QSA (3) CC Tr Witt (8906 Corpl. T W Barrett, Lovat’s Scouts); KSA (2) (Lt. T W Barrett, Scot. Horse). DNW December 2003 £410 DCM Ed VII (8709 Cpl A Chisholm Lovat’s Scts); Territorial Force Efficiency Medal GV (850 Sgt Lovat’s Scts Yeo). DCM LG 26 June 1902. DNW May 1992 £740 QSA (4) CC Tr Witt SA01 (8713 Pte G Craig, Lovat’s Scts). Spink February 1975 QSA (3) CC OFS Joh (8740 Pte A Grant, Lovat’s Scts). City Coins #57 QSA (4) CC Joh DH Witt (8750 Private J H Henderson, Lovats Scouts.); KSA (2). Wounded near Edenburg 14 November 1900. Sotheby November 1978. Sotheby January 1972 QSA (3) CC Witt SA01 (8811 Pte. D. Macfarlane, Lovat’s Scouts). DNW July 2001 £180 QSA (3) CC Witt SA01 (8812 Pte D S Macgregor, Lovat's Scouts); Natal (1) (Trooper D.S. MacGregor, Transvaal Mounted Rifles). DNW May 1992 £150 QSA (4) CC Tr Witt SA01 (8818 Pte H Mackay, Lovat’s Scts). City Coins #35. DNW March 2011 £250 QSA (3) CC Tr Witt (8813 Pte A MacIntyre, Lovat’s Scouts). Alexander MacIntyre was also entitled to the “South Africa 1901” clasp for his subsequent services in ‘A’ Division, South African Constabulary (No. 194 Corporal) and the Provisional Transvaal Constabulary. DNW September 2007 £190. Sold with a QSA named to him in the SAC by DNW, June 2005 QSA (3) CC Witt SA01 (8835 Pte. J. MacLachlan, Lovat’s Scouts). James MacLachlan was born near Pitlochry, Perthshire. A Gamekeeper and Blacksmith by occupation, he attested for one years service with the Black Watch for the Special Highland Scouting Corps (Lovat’s Scouts) at Beaufort Castle on 5 February 1900, aged 34 years. With Lovat’s Scouts he served in South Africa, March 1900-August 1901. DNW September 2013 £180 QSA (5) CC Joh DH Witt SA01 (8853 Pte. A. MacMillan, Lovat’s Scouts). Alexander MacMillan was born in Kilwinning, Ayr. A Policeman by occupation, he attested for service at Beaufort Castle on 2 February 1900. He served with Lovat’s Scouts in South Africa from 11 March 1900 until 13 August 1901. He was discharged on 20 August 1901. DNW December 2006 £190 Pair. 8823 Corporal J. McKenzie, Lovat's Scouts. DCM Ed VII (Pte); QSA (4) CC Joh DH Witt (Cpl). DCM London Gazette, 26.6.1902. Sotheby November 1978. DNW July 2017 £1800. DNW July 2018 £1900 QSA (4) CC Joh DH Witt (8874 Pte J Ross, Lovat’s Scouts). Attested at Beaufort Castle, 6 February 1900 and arrived in South Africa 11 Match 1900. He attested in the ‘Special Highland Scouting Corps’. Discharged 31 January 1902 to work as a locomotive foreman in the Central African Railways. Spink October 1999 QSA (5) CC Joh DH Witt 01 (8895 Pte J Taylor, Lovat’s Scts). Spink October 1999. Spink July 2019 QSAs are also found named to the 113th, 114th and 178th IY (Lovat's Scouts) which were raised in 1901. These are identifiable by the regimental number. QSA (4) CC OFS SA02 SA02 (36666 Pte. D. Cameron, Lovat’s Scouts); BWM & VM (11/280 Sgt. D. Cameron, N.Z.E.F.), renamed; Army MSM GV (11-280 Sjt. D. Cameron, N.Z. Pnrs.). Duncan Cameron was born in Glasgow, Scotland in February 1866 and, as confirmed by accompanying research, saw active service with the Gordon Highlanders in India and was awarded the India General Service Medal for the Hazara operations of 1888 and 1891. During the Boer War he served in 11th Company, Imperial Yeomanry (Lovat’s Scout’s) and was severely wounded at Sptzkopnear on 20 September 1901, namely by a gunshot wound in his right thigh and stomach. Enlisting in the New Zealand Expeditionary Force in August 1914, he was embarked for Gallipoli in May 1915, where he was slightly wounded while serving at the Mounted Rifles Brigade H.Q. on 27 June. Later still, he was evacuated to Mudros suffering from debility (1914-15 Star). Embarked for England in late 1915, he transferred to the N.Z. Maori (Pioneer) Battalion in September 1916 and went to France in January 1917, where he was advanced to Sergeant that summer. It was in this latter capacity that he was awarded the M.S.M. ‘in recognition of valuable services rendered with the armies in the Field’ (London Gazette 1 January 1918, refers). However, later in the same year - on 30 August - he was wounded by a gunshot to the forehead and evacuated to England. Cameron was discharged on account of wounds in October 1919 but was re-employed by the N.Z. Army Ordnance Corps until December 1921. He died at Silverstream in March 1949 and bequeathed the whole of his Estate - including his medals - to the Wellington Presbyterian Orphanage and Social Service Association. DNW July 2016 £550 QSA (4) CC OFS SA02 SA02 (36683 Pte J Fraser, Lovat’s Scts). John Fraser was born in Inverness. A Tailor by occupation, he attested for one years service in the Imperial Yeomanry - Lovat’s Scouts at Beaufort on 10 May 1901, aged 24 years, 8 months. With the 113th/114th Company Imperial Yeomanry (Lovat’s Scouts) he served in South Africa, June 1901-August 1902. City Coins #56. DNW September 2013 £160 QSA (4) CC OFS SA01 SA02 (36685 Sergt S A French, Lovat’s Scouts). DNW March 2007 £160 QSA (4) CC OFS SA01 SA02 (36724 Pte. P. McDougall, Lovat's Scouts). Sotheby November 1978 QSA (4) CC OFS SA01 SA02 (Capt. D. E. Mackintosh, Lovat's Scouts) last two clasps are copies, not entitled to OFS. Together with a miniature dress medal of the QSA; Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, bronze medallion, reverse inscribed, ‘Awarded to D. E. Mackintosh, 15th April 1891’, in (damaged) Kirkwood, Edinburgh case of issue. David Euan Mackintosh was born on 11 February 1877, the son of Hon Lord Kyllachy, of Kyllachy. DNW September 2013 £520 QSA (3) CC SA01 SA02 (37377 Pte. J. Macleod. Lovat’s Scouts). James Macleod was born in Barvas, Outer Hebrides in 1881 and attested for the Imperial Yeomanry at Inverness on 30 November 1901. He served with the 178th (Lovat’s Scouts) Independent Company, Imperial Yeomanry in South Africa during the Boer War from 3 December 1901, and was discharged at Green Point, Cape Town, on 3 July 1902, after 257 days’ service. DNW May 2018 £200 QSA (4) CC OFS SA01 SA02 (36731 Pte. D. McKenzie, Lovat's Scouts). Wounded at Spitzkop, 20th September 1901. DNW May 1992 £130 QSA (4) CC OFS SA01 SA02 (36733 Pte J McKenzie, Lovat’s Scts). DNW December 2013 £210 QSA (1) CC (36728 Pte A Mckenzie, Lovat’s Scts). City Coins #18 QSA (3) CC SA01 SA02 (36624 Pte J Meldrum Lovat’s Scts). City Coins #28 April 1982. City Coins #68 QSA (4) CC Rhod OFS Tr (36631 Pte. J. Munro, Lovat's Scouts), last clasp a copy. Sotheby November 1978. Liverpool February 1997 £65. Clasps not confirmed and dubious QSA (3) CC SA01 SA02 (37465 Pte. A. Murray, Lovat’s Scouts). Private Alexander Murray, 178th (Lovat’s Scouts) Company, Imperial Yeomanry, was severely wounded at Stapleford on 21 May 1902. DNW December 2001 £360 QSA (4) CC OFS SA01 SA02 (36762 Pte. D. Noble, Lovat’s Scouts). Severely wounded at Spitzkop, near Quaagersfontein, on the night of 20 September 1901, when their camp was attacked by a band of Boers under Kritzinger. The Boers charged into the sleeping camp and shot down officers and men as they struggled out of their blankets. Among the Lovat’s Scouts killed were the Colonel, Hon. Andrew Murray, and his brother, Captain Hon. E. O. Murray; 48 others were killed or wounded and one field-gun captured. DNW December 1999 £250 QSA (3) CC SA01 SA02 (37367 Pte. H. Stokes. Lovat's Scouts.); BWM (Lieut. H. Stokes). He was born in Carr Bridge, Invernesshire & emigrated to Canada prior to WWI. He was commissioned into the 174th Bn. C.E.F. (Cameron Highlanders of Canada). He later transferred to the 14th Res. Bn. in England, but because of a disability never crossed over to France, and consequently was only entitled to the BWM. Burman March 2000. QSA (3) CC SA01 SA02 (36650 Pte A A Taylor, Lovat’s Scts). Dixon 2013 Dr David Biggins
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Medals to Lovat's Scouts 5 years 11 months ago #65545
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Dr David Biggins
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