Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC:

British 303 Rounds.... Regular - Dum Dum 1 year 20 hours ago #92319

  • Sturgy
  • Sturgy's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 271
  • Thank you received: 349
Thanks Neville, I greatly appreciate the information.

Thanks again.
Speak my name so that I may live again

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

British 303 Rounds.... Regular - Dum Dum 1 year 6 hours ago #92335

  • LinneyI
  • LinneyI's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2765
  • Thank you received: 1604
Sturgy
Thanks for showing those headstamp pics and the locations where they were found. As a matter of interest, the 7mm Mauser headstamp is one which is often found here in OZ on Boer-sourced ammunition.
The .303" fired case bearing headstamps "K" at 12 o'clock and "1" at 6 o'clock was indeed made by Kynoch, Birmingham and was a "Mark 1"; however that is only a part of the story. What follows is a trifle dry; however you may find it interesting.
In the 1880s, the British army had been working towards adopting a magazine rifle firing smokeless ammunition. Troop Trials in 1888 had proved the combination of the Lee Bolt action and magazine and the calibre of.303". However, work on the form and content of the actual cartridge was needed. Smokeless Cordite propellent was still under development so - for the forthcoming "Magazine Rifle Mark 1" - there was introduced in February 1889 (as a temporary measure) the "Cartridge S.A. Ball, Magazine Rifle Mark 1" loaded with a compressed pellet of black powder. This ammunition (later titled .303" Powder Mark 1") was oddly enough, approved prior to adoption of the LM rifle. Clearly just a book entry to tidy up the Official Lists of Changes.
This .303" Powder Mark 1 ammunition was identified by a round nosed bullet and the headstamp which included the initial of the contractor and the numeral 1. There was a Mark 2 version of the same round still loaded with a compressed black powder pellet and identified by the headstamp numeral "II". These powder loaded .303" rounds were not issued for active service and in any case were quickly replaced by Cordite loaded ammunition in 1891 (suitably identified by the headstamp of contractor's initials, Mark number and the letter "C").
So, how does a .303" Powder Mark 1 cartridge case (an extreme rarity, of a type never issued for service) come to be found at Colesburg all those years later? The reference quoted by Neville provides a clue. Rounds bearing the "K" and "1" headstamps loaded with lead tip bullets have been noted by Bester as being found at Colesburg.
Now, many years ago in the mid 1960's, a relatively large quantity of sporting .303" ammunition was found on the premises of a closed Gunsmith in Sydney and came to the attention of collectors. Put up in flat, ten round Kynoch labelled boxes, the contents were a mixture of soft nosed, split or hollow pointed projectiles loaded into a mixture of British military headstamped cases. They were obviously not official issue - so how come? It was my opinion at the time (and it still is) that the hoard of sporting .303" ammunition was a "bring back" by one of the local contingents from the South African war. Let's face it, the local contingents brought back many Mausers and ammunition and examples are still found to this day.
Mixed in with all the other sporting rounds in the ten round packets was the very occasional soft point .303" round bearing the "K" "1" headstamp. Intrigued, I downloaded one and found (as half expected) that the case was not loaded with Cordite - but a black powder pellet. That was not consistent across other samples with different headstamps as all contained Cordite. Thus, some manufacturing concern (Kynoch?) had substituted the original military projectiles from a condemned batch or batches of ammunition with more saleable sporting types and marketed them as such. The inference I made at the time (and still adhere to) is that they were exported
to the Boer Republics pre war for "sporting" purposes and found their way onto the battlefield. And hence to OZ as war booty.
Sadly, I do not have the original "K" "1" case containing the powder pellet. However, I still have a couple of the rounds taken from those flat Kynoch packets and will dig them out and post them.
I hope the above is of interest to you (and perhaps others) and illustrates the point that British commercial concerns supplied sporting .303" ammunition to the Boer Republics and some of it ended up being illegally used on the battlefield.
Regards
IL.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Neville_C, Sturgy

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

British 303 Rounds.... Regular - Dum Dum 1 year 1 hour ago #92342

  • Sturgy
  • Sturgy's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 271
  • Thank you received: 349
Hi IL,

What a fantastic read & thoroughly enjoyable; thanks so much for the information; it's exciting to know that there is so much out there to learn.

Thanks again.
Speak my name so that I may live again

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

British 303 Rounds.... Regular - Dum Dum 1 year 14 minutes ago #92346

  • Neville_C
  • Neville_C's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1622
  • Thank you received: 2547
Thank you IL,

An excellent and highly informative piece, adding greatly to my meagre knowledge of small arms ammunition.

Below is a soft-nosed .303 cartridge and a fragment of packaging, both manufactured by Eley Bros, London.

The cardboard box lid was found in the bed of the Vaal River at Fourteen Streams. It was brought home as a souvenir by Lieutenant Hugh Steuart Gladstone, 3rd Bn. King's Own Scottish Borderers (attached to Field Intelligence Dept.)

The cartridge was found on Kitchener Hill (Tugela Operations) in the 1970's.

The cartridge on the printed label and that found on Kitchener Hill both have headstamps for Eley Brothers, London ("E B"). Ron Bester again lists these under the heading "rare examples", with the additional note "ammunition most probably bought by Boers" (p. 299). Although difficult to read, the image on the box appears to have additional "1" [?] and "D" headstamps. Bester does not list this type in his book, and I wonder whether the drawing was a true representation of the contents of the packaging. After all, although clearly labelled "Soft Nosed", the exposed lead tip of the bullet is not apparent in the image.



..
Attachments:
The following user(s) said Thank You: LinneyI

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

British 303 Rounds.... Regular - Dum Dum 11 months 4 weeks ago #92348

  • LinneyI
  • LinneyI's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2765
  • Thank you received: 1604
Neville
The packet label you have kindly illustrated is identical in most respects to those from the Sydney "gunsmith's hoard" all those years ago. The only difference being that (from memory) the labels reflected the contents of the packet; i.e., split jacket, hollow nose, etc. The round illustrated on the label of your packet appears to bear the headstamp "Arrow" at 12 o'clock, "II" at 6 o'clock, "E: at 9 o'clock and "B" at 3 o'clock. Ostensibly denoting Government property, Mark II type and made by Eley Bros. Could be a bit of long ago artist's licence as the waterline "E" "B" headstamp was more often seen. I will illustrate such an example in due course.
Might I ask if the propellent present in the Kitchener Hill round is granular, cordite or ??? Is any headstamp visible?
Regards
IL.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Neville_C

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

British 303 Rounds.... Regular - Dum Dum 11 months 4 weeks ago #92350

  • Neville_C
  • Neville_C's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1622
  • Thank you received: 2547
IL,

I see what you mean about the Broad Arrow /|\ at 12 o'clock. The mark at 6 o'clock looks more like a "D", but I suspect that is just poor printing. "II" certainly makes more sense.

Remarkably, having checked the interior of the Kitchener Hill round, there are still small fragments of cordite strand impacted at the base. The headstamps are simply "E" at 9 o'clock and "B" at 3 o'clock. Ron Bester shows this type on p. 299, sixth row down.








..
Attachments:
The following user(s) said Thank You: LinneyI

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: djb
Time to create page: 0.601 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum